Predestination vs free will, which is true?

Some topics on this page are not considered accurate. We recommend you view our online book The Way and Free Will. Which has undergone some refinement and additional research.

Predestination is often taken too far so it negates free will or man’s choices. This page seeks to show that Scripture supports and The Early Church believed in free will, that the idea of Predestination was not believed in by the Early Church Leaders, who called a similar form of it Fatalism. The page also seeks to give scriptural support to free will and discusses any objections to free will in detail.

What is predestination anyway? Predestination is the idea that God selected who He would save before creation, and only chose to show them mercy, pouring out his wrath or anger on those who He neglected to choose.

Free will which has the support of the Early Church, and scripture, states that God gives His good will to all people, showing them how He wishes them to respond to Him and grants salvation to those who will follow His leading and ways.

Content Overview

• Free Will believed by the Early Church Fathers (living within 150 years of Jesus)
• Scripture to support Free will
  • Cain a case study of free will
  • God's wrath only on those who suppress the truth
  • Jesus’ view on who receives the Holy Spirit
  • Blindness and free will
  • Meaning of the term Foreknown
  • What does Romans 9 mean
  • John 15:14-17 - Chosen?
  • Rev 13:8 and Rev 17:8 - Book of Life?
  • Are we Totally Depraved?
• What does God plan and what does He not
  • God and knowing all outcomes
  • The two-way plan for man, destiny and our choices
  • God does not "know" the future, but can control it
  • Why blinded and given a negative purpose?
  • God can not be tempted by evil so does not drive it
• Predestination's Unreasonableness

Free Will was believed by the Early Church Fathers not Predestination

The following are some excerpts from the Early Church Fathers that show they believed in Free Will. Note that I only quote from the first 150 or so years after Christ because their writing is most likely to contain the truth about what the church believed. As the church as a body progressed over the centuries views may have been formed that were not originally intended or believed by the earliest church.

Justin Martyr (110-165 AD) believed in genuine Free Will

Justin Martyr brings up the topic of Predestination (Fatalism) and says it is not what the Church believed in his day.

Justin Martyr shows Foreknown does not mean Predestined

Some takeaway points from Justin Martyr is that he mentions the term Foreknown (foretold as known beforehand), and says just because the church uses that term does not mean man does not have a genuinely free will regarding salvation.

Justin Martyr stresses man could only be accountable if free will is real

In his writing, Justin Martyr stresses we would not be worthy of judgment either for good or bad if we did not have genuine free will.

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 56-50

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

Below follow some other quotes from Justin Martyr that support free will.

Dialogue of Justin, Philosopher and Martyr, with Trypho, a Jew. (Cont.)

Chap. LXXXVIII. — Christ Has Not Received the Holy Spirit on Account of Poverty.

For God, wishing both angels and men, who were endowed with freewill, and at their own disposal, to do whatever He had strengthened each to do, made them so, that if they chose the things acceptable to Himself, He would keep them free from death and from punishment; but that if they did evil, He would punish each as He sees fit.

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 1-25

Chap. X. — How God Is to Be Served.

But we have received by tradition that God does not need the material offerings which men can give, seeing, indeed, that He Himself is the provider of all things. And we have been taught, and are convinced, and do believe, that He accepts those only who imitate the excellences which reside in Him, temperance, and justice, and philanthropy, and as many virtues as are peculiar to a God who is called by no proper name. And we have been taught that He in the beginning did of His goodness, for man’s sake, create all things out of unformed matter; and if men by their works show themselves worthy of this His design, they are deemed worthy, and so we have received — of reigning in company with Him, being delivered from corruption and suffering. For as in the beginning He created us when we were not, so do we consider that, in like manner, those who choose what is pleasing to Him are, on account of their choice, deemed worthy of incorruption and of fellowship with Him. For the coming into being at first was not in our own power; and in order that we may follow those things which please Him, choosing them by means of the rational faculties He has Himself endowed us with, He both persuades us and leads us to faith.

Irenaeus (120-202 AD) in his Against Heresies taught genuine Free Will

Irenaeus (120-202 AD) in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 shows clearly that it is man's free will choice to choose or reject God.

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom 2:4, Rom 2:5, Rom 2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.

2. But if some had been made by nature bad, and others good, these latter would not be deserving of praise for being good, for such were they created; nor would the former be reprehensible, for thus they were made [originally]. But since all men are of the same nature, able both to hold fast and to do what is good; and, on the other hand, having also the power to cast it from them and not to do it, — some do justly receive praise even among men who are under the control of good laws (and much more from God), and obtain deserved testimony of their choice of good in general, and of persevering therein; but the others are blamed, and receive a just condemnation, because of their rejection of what is fair and good. And therefore the prophets used to exhort men to what was good, to act justly and to work righteousness, as I have so largely demonstrated, because it is in our power so to do, and because by excessive negligence we might become forgetful, and thus stand in need of that good counsel which the good God has given us to know by means of the prophets.

3. For this reason the Lord also said, “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.” (Mat 5:16) And, “Take heed to yourselves, lest perchance your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and worldly cares.” (Luk 21:34) And, “Let your loins be girded about, and your lamps burning, and ye like unto men that wait for their Lord, when He returns from the wedding, that when He cometh and knocketh, they may open to Him. Blessed is that servant whom his Lord, when He cometh, shall find so doing.” (Luk_12:35, Luk_12:36) And again, “The servant who knows his Lord’s will, and does it not, shall be beaten with many stripes.” (Luk_12:47) And, “Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luk 6:46) And again, “But if the servant say in his heart, The Lord delayeth, and begin to beat his fellow-servants, and to eat, and drink, and to be drunken, his Lord will come in a day on which he does not expect Him, and shall cut him in sunder, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites.” (Luk 12:45, Luk 12:46; Mat 24:48, Mat 24:51) All such passages demonstrate the independent will151 of man, and at the same time the counsel which God conveys to him, by which He exhorts us to submit ourselves to Him, and seeks to turn us away from [the sin of] unbelief against Him, without, however, in any way coercing us.

4. No doubt, if any one is unwilling to follow the Gospel itself, it is in his power [to reject it], but it is not expedient. For it is in man’s power to disobey God, and to forfeit what is good; but [such conduct] brings no small amount of injury and mischief. And on this account Paul says, “All things are lawful to me, but all things are not expedient;” (1Co 6:12) referring both to the liberty of man, in which respect “all things are lawful,” God exercising no compulsion in regard to him; and [by the expression] “not expedient” pointing out that we “should not use our liberty as a cloak of maliciousness,” (1Pe 2:16) for this is not expedient. And again he says, “Speak ye every man truth with his neighbour.” (Eph 4:25) And, “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor scurrility, which are not convenient, but rather giving of thanks.” (Eph 4:29) And, “For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord; walk honestly as children of the light, not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in anger and jealousy. And such were some of you; but ye have been washed, but ye have been sanctified in the name of our Lord.” (1Co 6:11) If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things, and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God.

5. And not merely in works, but also in faith, has God preserved the will of man free and under his own control, saying, “According to thy faith be it unto thee;” (Mat 9:29) thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, “All things are possible to him that believeth;” (Mat 9:23) and, “Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.” (Mat 8:13) Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. And for this reason, “he that believeth in Him has eternal life while he who believeth not the Son hath not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him.” (Joh 3:36) In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his own free will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, “How often have I wished to gather thy children together, as a hen [gathereth] her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate.” (Mat 23:37, Mat 23:38)

Some Scripture to support Free will

As we see free will was an important understanding of the early church. Predestination's harsh view of God flies in the face of an early understanding of scripture. But even to us just using the bible, there are plenty of scriptures that show us that God does give us a choice. Not only does the Bible clearly say Jesus died for all people, as follows, but also gives indirect support to free will.

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.​

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.​

In scripture there is always a choice of life or death based on what we do:

1 Ch 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind; for Jehovah searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: If thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

Isa 1:19-20 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: but if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword; for the mouth of Jehovah hath spoken it.

Gen 4:6-7 And the Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry? and why is your face sad? If you do well, will you not have honour? and if you do wrong, sin is waiting at the door, desiring to have you, but do not let it be your master.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;

A person who believes in Predestination will say, "God just says they have a chance when really they do not, the command does not imply the ability to obey", that is an unwise thing to say, for it is making God to be a liar.

Cain a case study of free will

For a case study on free will let’s take the example above of Cain, scripture in the New Testament says of Cain that he was "of the wicked one", meaning a child of the devil, or given over to sin.

1Jn 3:12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother's righteous.

To a Predestinist this means God gave him no chance, no choice, he was never going to be saved. But God who is not a liar said to Cain when Cain desired sin, " If you do well, will you not have honour? and if you do wrong, sin is waiting at the door". We see God offered Cain one of two pathways, life if he did good, and death if he did evil.

Gen 4:6-7 And the Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry? and why is your face sad? If you do well, will you not have honour? and if you do wrong, sin is waiting at the door, desiring to have you, but do not let it be your master.

You can see there that God gives us two pathways, one toward life if we are willing and obedient, but destruction if we follow after our sinful nature.

God's wrath only on those who suppress the truth

Predestination says that God desires the death of certain ones due to His plan, to pour out His wrath, and make His power known. But we see that God has always had a willingness to save people, desiring it, but man is often unwilling to follow God's ways. This shows that God does not desire wrath for man.

Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Again we see from the following, God does not desire wrath, rather salvation, wrath is a result of people rejecting His message. Not a result of His nature.

Eze 33:11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

God only becomes wrathful with man when they suppress, push down in their hearts, the knowledge God gives of Himself. Men are not born for wrath.

Rom 1:18-19 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.

Jesus’ view on the Holy Spirit who sees and who is blind?

A Predestinist will say, man is so wicked he can not choose well doing. That the person is blinded by God. But this is not what Jesus said, God opens the eyes of the obedient, and leaves the sinner to his or her blindness.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 14:22-24 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me. 

The above scriptures show us that salvation is coupled by our obedience to the commands of God. It is God who initiates this however. As we see in Job:

Job 36:10-12 He openeth also their ear to instruction, And commandeth that they return from iniquity. If they hearken and serve him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they hearken not, they shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

God opens their ears to His truth and tells them to return, and there are two pathways, either obey and be saved, deny and sin, and perish.

Blindness and Free Will

People are not blinded by God, as traditional Predestination affirms, but enter blindness after resiting the knowledge of God, as we see in Jesus’ words (in John 14 in the above paragraphs). Note the Church Fathers called this blinding "self-blinding", God allows/gives hardness of heart to the sinner, but those who persist in well-doing life.

Iranaeus - Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 39-End

4. But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God.

God does allow blindness to occur, but I believe only after a man rejects the light.

Romans 1:20-22 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

What happened in the above scripture? God gave evidence to man, evidence of Him. But some chose to not glorify God, so He gave them over to a darkened heart. This backs up the idea that the darkness of the heart comes with the rejection of God’s evidence.

Iranaeus also fights the idea that God is the author of sin becasue he blinded Pharaoh.

Iranaeus - Against Heresies - Book 4 Chap. XXIX. — Refutation of the Arguments of the Marcionites, Who Attempted to Show That God Was the Author of Sin, Because He Blinded Pharaoh and His Servants.

1. “But,” say they, “God hardened the heart of Pharaoh and of his servants.” (Exo_9:35) Those, then, who allege such difficulties, do not read in the Gospel that passage where the Lord replied to the disciples, when they asked Him, “Why speakest Thou unto them in parables?” — “Because it is given unto you to know the mystery of the kingdom of heaven; but to thorn I speak in parables, that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not hear, understanding they may not understand; in order that the prophecy of Isaiah regarding them may be fulfil leading, Make the heart of this people gross and make their ears dull, and blind their eyes. But blessed are your eyes, which see the things that ye see; and your ears, which hear what ye do hear. (Mat_13:11-16; Isa_6:10) For one and the same God [that blesses others] inflicts blindness upon those who do not believe, but who set Him at naught; just as the sun, which is a creature of His, [acts with regard] to those who, by reason of any weakness of the eyes cannot behold his light; but to those who believe in Him and follow Him, He grants a fuller and greater illumination of mind. In accordance with this word, therefore, does the apostle say, in the Second the] to the Corinthians: “In whom the this world hath blinded the minds of them that believe not, lest the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ should shine [unto them].” (2Co_4:4) And again, in that to the Romans: “And as they did not think fit to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up to a reprobate mind, to do those things that are not convenient.” (Rom_1:28) Speaking of antichrist, too, he says clearly in the Second to the Thessalonians: “And for this cause God shall send them the working of error, that they should believe a lie; that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but consented to iniquity.” (2Th_2:11)

What does the scripture mean by Foreknown

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I am building a better referenced version of this topic see Foreknown Meaning in Romans 8:29-30 in more detail.

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A key scripture used to prop up the case for Predestination is:

Rom 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

This scripture is interpreted by people who have been taught Predestination to mean God knew a group of people before creation, and at that moment predestined them, or marked them out for salvation, leaving the others with no hope. In order to get some more context on the above scripture I wish to investigate the writings of one of the Earliest Church Fathers. I do this to show how the word was used and interpreted in other Christian writings. I wish to see how the term “foreknown”, was used. Let’s look at the usage of the word.

Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho

Chap. CXL. — In Christ All Are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They Are Sons of Abraham.

...Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be...

Chap. CXLI. — Free-Will in Men and Angels.

...But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’...

We see foreknowledge here is not seen as a predetermined choice by God, to make some wicked, and some righteous, but rather God “knew” some would become unchangeably wicked. Even though “if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God”

Other examples of the usage of the word are seen below, we see in these examples it is used in the following way “[those] foreknown were to believe in Him” and “the people foreknown to believe in Him were fore-known to pursue diligently the fear of the Lord”

We see from the first usage regarding angels and men that it does not mean selected to be righteous, or evil before creation, but rather God knew some would be unchangeably wicked, and some righteous before creation. In that context, the following could be understood as:

Rom 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew would believe in Him, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Essentially:

Before creation, God knew there would be those who would believe, He, at creation, decided they should be conformed to the image of His Son. These ones that He marked out, He called out to, these ones He justified, and whom He justified He also glorified.

What does Romans 9 Mean

Romans 9 can be a difficult passage to discern when applying to free will. But we have to look at how it starts.

Rom 9:7-8 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "IN ISAAC YOUR SEED SHALL BE CALLED." That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

I believe the promise referred to in Romans 9 is "faith", that Paul is stating the promise of faith is similar to that of the story of Jacob. It was unearned and came as the result of God's call, it was a prophetic picture of faith, as is backed by the Early Church (as we shall see). I do not believe that the passage is a word-for-word depiction of how a man is saved, that God has premeditated hate for some and not others. The Bible is full of references stating that God wants all men to be saved. If we look at a view of Romans 9 by Irenaeus (120-202 AD) we see Romans 9 is said to be a picture of two nations not two individuals. This is an important point because the story of Jacob and Esau was seen by the Early Church as a picture of God extending grace to the Gentiles. The younger nation (Gentiles) receiving the birth right that was originally Esau's (the Jews). It also showed that just because you were a son of Abraham by birth did not mean you would inherit the promise. Only Jacobs line was blessed, becoming Israel, not Esau's line by birth. As we see in Romans 9 above "the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God". The point of the story of Jacob was not God selected Jacob for salvation but not Esau. But rather not all of Abraham's children automatically qualify for salvation. So we need to be looking to something different to determine how salvation occurs, not by the flesh, but by faith. So when we look at the following passage it is likely that it too is talking of the prophetic nature of the story of Jacob. Not speaking of their individual salvation. Rather that the story contains imagery of how faith would come, not by works but by Him who calls. The call to us being to have faith in Jesus.

Rom 9:11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

Below are three quotes from the Early Church regarding Jacob and Esau, followed by an argument in favor of free will from Romans 9.

Irenaeus Against Heresies. (Cont.)
Book IV. (Cont.)

Chap. XXI. — Abraham’s Faith Was Identical with Ours; This Faith Was Prefigured by the Words and Actions of the Old Patriarchs.

2. The history of Isaac, too, is not without a symbolical character. For in the Epistle to the Romans, the apostle declares: “Moreover, when Rebecca had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac,” she received answer72 from the Word, “that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth, it was said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people are in thy body; and the one people shall overcome the other, and the elder shall serve the younger.” (Rom_9:10-13; Gen_25:23) From which it is evident, that not only [were there] prophecies of the patriarchs, but also that the children brought forth by Rebecca were a prediction of the two nations; and that the one should be indeed the greater, but the other the less; that the one also should be under bondage, but the other free; but [that both should be] of one and the same father. Our God, one and the same, is also their God, who knows hidden things, who knoweth all things before they can come to pass; and for this reason has He said, “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.” (Rom_9:13; Mal_1:2)

3. If any one, again, will look into Jacob’s actions, he shall find them not destitute of meaning, but full of import with regard to the dispensations. Thus, in the first place, at his birth, since he laid hold on his brother’s heel, (Gen_25:26) he was called Jacob, that is, the supplanter — one who holds, but is not held; binding the feet, but not being bound; striving and conquering; grasping in his hand his adversary’s heel, that is, victory. For to this end was the Lord born, the type of whose birth he set forth beforehand, of whom also John says in the Apocalypse: “He went forth conquering, that He should conquer.” (Rev_6:2) In the next place, [Jacob] received the rights of the first-born, when his brother looked on them with contempt; even as also the younger nation received Him, Christ, the first-begotten, when the elder nation rejected Him, saying, “We have no king but Caesar.” (Joh_19:15) But in Christ every blessing [is summed up], and therefore the latter people has snatched away the blessings of the former from the Father, just as Jacob took away the blessing of this Esau.

Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho Ch 103-121
Chap. CXX. — Christians Were Promised to Isaac, Jacob, and Judah.

“Observe, too, how the same promises are made to Isaac and to Jacob. For thus He speaks to Isaac: ‘And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.’ (Gen_26:4) And to Jacob: ‘And in thee and in thy seed shall all families of the earth be blessed.’ (Gen_28:14) He says that neither to Esau nor to Reuben, nor to any other; only to those of whom the Christ should arise, according to the dispensation, through the Virgin Mary. But if you would consider the blessing of Judah, you would perceive what I say. For the seed is divided from Jacob, and comes down through Judah, and Phares, and Jesse, and David. And this was a symbol of the fact that some of your nation would be found children of Abraham, and found, too, in the lot of Christ; but that others, who are indeed children of Abraham, would be like the sand on the sea-shore, barren and fruitless, much in quantity, and without number indeed, but bearing no fruit whatever, and only drinking the water of the sea. And a vast multitude in your nation are convicted of being of this kind, imbibing doctrines of bitterness and godlessness, but spurning the word of God.

Barabus Epistle – Part 2
Chap. XIII. — Christians, and Not Jews, the Heirs of the Covenant.

But let us see if this people134 is the heir, or the former, and if the covenant belongs to us or to them. Hear ye now what the Scripture saith concerning the people. Isaac prayed for Rebecca his wife, because she was barren; and she conceived. (Gen_25:21) Furthermore also, Rebecca went forth to inquire of the Lord; and the Lord said to her, “Two nations are in thy womb, and two peoples in thy belly; and the one people shall surpass the other, and the elder shall serve the younger.” (Gen_25:23) You ought to understand who was Isaac, who Rebecca, and concerning what persons He declared that this people should be greater than that. And in another prophecy Jacob speaks more clearly to his son Joseph, saying, “Behold, the Lord hath not deprived me of thy presence; bring thy sons to me, that I may bless them.” (Gen_48:11, Gen_48:9) And he brought Manasseh and Ephraim, desiring that Manasseh135 should be blessed, because he was the elder. With this view Joseph led him to the right hand of his father Jacob. But Jacob saw in spirit the type of the people to arise afterwards. And what says [the Scripture]? And Jacob changed the direction of his bands, and laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, the second and younger, and blessed him. And Joseph said to Jacob, “Transfer thy right hand to the head of Manasseh,135 for he is my first-born son.” (Gen_48:18) And Jacob said, “I know it, my son, I know it; but the elder shall serve the younger: yet he also shall be blessed.” (Gen_48:19) Ye see on whom he laid136 [his hands], that this people should be first, and heir of the covenant. If then, still further, the same thing was intimated through Abraham, we reach the perfection of our knowledge. What, then, says He to Abraham? “Because thou hast believed,137 it is imputed to thee for righteousness: behold, I have made thee the father of those nations who believe in the Lord while in [a state of] uncircumcision.” (Gen_15:6, Gen_17:5; comp. Rom_4:3)

If we look at the following part of Romans 9 I believe it can be quite easily applied to free will. It states:

Romans 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

When I think of long-suffering I think of:

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I believe the long-suffering talked of by Paul and spoken of by the Church Fathers. Is that of God extending his hand over and over again to man, but some reject that, and end up blind to faith, and given to a sorry plan. But God is often, giving us mercy.

John 15:14-17 Chosen?

Calvinism states that God chooses people for salvation before the creation of the world, and only the elect are saved. Let's look at the following scripture used by Calvinism to support their case, and provide a rebuttal to its usage.

John 15:14-17 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. These things I command you, that you love one another.

The above scripture is used to say by a Calvinist that God chooses us (before creation) we don't choose him. But first before we discuss the passage we will look at where Jesus talks about receiving the Holy Spirit.

John 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

We see here the order of receiving the Holy Spirit:

1. Man obeys God
2. God loves the one who obeys
3. God gives the Holy Spirit to the obedient

We see here that receiving Jesus is an act of obedience, being willing to follow Jesus and His teachings. The primary work is faith (John 6:29). So we see man chooses God after God's offer of salvation is presented, it is an act of man's will (obedience).

So now let's return to the first scripture. It is not talking about man choosing God in the sense of salvation it is talking about who "appointed" who. Who ordained who.

John 15:14-17 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. These things I command you, that you love one another.

Notice the frequency of the term, servant, and master. Jesus is saying "You did not ordain me (you are not the master), I ordained you (Jesus is the master). It is not talking about the order in which salvation occurs, it is talking about Lordship, and how even though He is Lord he calls them friends.

Rev 13:8 and Rev 17:8 and the Book of Life

Revelation has two verses that appear to have a Deterministic meaning:

Rev 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

It appears at first glance that these scriptures support predestination. Saying the names of the damned we not in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world. However as pointed out at Stack Exchange the actual meaning of the word apo G575 the word "from" can have the connotation of referring to a span of time leading out from that place over time. As we see in the following two scriptures:

Luke 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

What this shows is that both Rev 13:8 and Rev 17:8 need not mean the names were in the book at the beginning, but rather were entered in from the point of creation on, they were inscribed as time went by, or in the case of the damned were not entered as time passed.

Are we Totally Depraved?

Predestination assumes that people are totally depraved, have no desire for God, or His word, nor a will capable of following God. That we prefer to sin. Although man’s nature indeed follows after sinful desires when left to itself, we are not Totally Depraved.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

Jesus told His disciples to remain connected to God, for in doing so God’s Spirit would strengthen them. God’s Spirit would make them willing to obey.

Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."

But to prove that the unregenerate man is not totally depraved, but rather has a will capable of following God, we only have to look at what Paul said of the unregenerate man.

Rom 7:14-23 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

We see that the unregenerate man can still “delight in the law of God according to the inward man”, and “for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find”. We see the human will is very much intact, we can still make strides to follow after God, to walk in His direction, even in our sinful state.

What does God plan and what does He not

First, we have to see that God does not have a fixed plan for every action of man. If you go to Genisis you see God was shocked at how bad man had become, and it grieved Him. If everything was set to a fixed plan then this would not have surprised God at all.

Gen 6:6-7 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

God and knowing all outcomes

The degree to which God fixes events is unknown, but some events in our lives are fixed. God does have boundaries to our personal stories. Some of these limits span the whole of creation, from start to end, while others are localized to an individual's life.

It may seem hard to imagine the world having free choice and God being able to know the future, but I am a computer programmer by trade and have studied Artificial Intelligence, there is one branch of knowledge that can predict all possible outcomes in a simulation or game, the computer can essentially know within a system of free choices, all possible outcomes. God is a lot faster and smarter than a simple computer. The only way however that the computer can “know” the end from the beginning, is to set constraints on choices, making stories, or outcomes that are restricted, which simplifies computation. For God to know every event that could potentially happen He would need to put constraints on man’s stories. And we see this is what God appears to have done:

Acts 17:26-27 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

What is the point of God restricting choices? “That they should seek the Lord if haply they might feel after him, and find him”, God wants us all to find Jesus. Yes, God has set end game moments, He has predetermined points of history that will never change, that is predestined, like the cross, and His return at the time of the end. But there are inconsequential choices that occur in between. You may be destined to meet someone who needs Jesus in one day, or two. But God does not care how many coffees you have in between.

The two-way plan for man, destiny and our choices

We have shown previously that God has two pathways for man, if they are willing and obedient a pathway that is good and ends in life, if they sin and harden their face a pathway that ends in death.

We will go to King David. In the Psalms he wrote:

Psa 139:16-18 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book all my days were recorded, even those which were purposed before they had come into being. How dear are your thoughts to me, O God! how great is the number of them! If I made up their number, it would be more than the grains of sand; when I am awake, I am still with you.

So we see that David says God had a plan written down for him in a book before he was formed in his mother’s womb. Which is not an uncommon thought. We also see Jeremiah:

Jer 1:5 Before you were formed in the body of your mother I had knowledge of you, and before your birth I made you holy; I have given you the work of being a prophet to the nations.

So we see that God is assigning works for people to do before they are born. That God has a plan for each of us. But what I want to show is that although God has a purpose for each of us, that purpose can, and does change depending on what we do. Our free will guides our end destination.

King David for example sinned by killing a man and taking the man’s wife to be his own.

2Sa 12:7-12 Then Nathan told David: You are that rich man! Now listen to what the LORD God of Israel says to you: "I chose you to be the king of Israel. I kept you safe from Saul and even gave you his house and his wives. I let you rule Israel and Judah, and if that had not been enough, I would have given you much more. Why did you disobey me and do such a horrible thing? You murdered Uriah the Hittite by having the Ammonites kill him, so you could take his wife. "Because you wouldn't obey me and took Uriah's wife for yourself, your family will never live in peace. Someone from your own family will cause you a lot of trouble, and I will take your wives and give them to another man before your very eyes. He will go to bed with them while everyone looks on. What you did was in secret, but I will do this in the open for everyone in Israel to see."

So what are we looking for in this scripture? Three things, a) God said “I would have given you much more”, if David did not sin his pathway would have been blessed even more, b) God said “Because you wouldn't obey me” a curse came into his life, c) God says “Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house,” (KJV), God changed David’s story.

So it is true that God assigns us a destiny “before we were born”, a Godly task to do, but if we obey, we will live, if we disobey we will have a curse. Our life is not set to one story, but is bound to our actions.

Jer 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Even Jeremiah had moments where he could have lost his calling.

Jer 15:19 Then the LORD told me: Stop talking like a fool! If you turn back to me and speak my message, I will let you be my prophet once again. I hope the people of Judah will accept what you say. But you can ignore their threats.

We must realize that God wants us saved, but we must be willing to respond.

Mat 23:37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem! Your people have killed the prophets and have stoned the messengers who were sent to you. I have often wanted to gather your people, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings. But you wouldn't let me. 

God does not "know" the future, but can control it

When forming a doctrine we need firstly to look to scripture. The following two scriptures show God does not have foreknowledge in the sense of knowing the future.

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

Gen 18:20-21 And the LORD said, "Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know."

The first scripture shows God was sorry for making man, due to how man turned out. This deflates argument God knows the future because He “fully controls it”, man has no control over salvation if God controlled everything He would not be surprised at the level of man's sins, He would know it already, for He planned it.

The Second scripture fights the idea that God has given man free will, to choose salvation, but even within that framework knows the future because God did not "know" how bad Sodom was, He needed to go down and look. If He was all-powerful, in terms of foreknowledge the trip was redundant, for He would have already known.

As for how God has foreknowledge, i.e. can prophecy future events, He writes man's stories, allowing for free will. As God is not the author of sin, so does not write in sins, but writes in such a way that He can work even man's sins around for good. This story is not linear but has some things that are fixed. As I stated:

It may seem hard to imagine the world having free choice and God being able to know the future, but I am a computer programmer by trade and have studied Artificial Intelligence, there is one branch of knowledge that can predict all possible outcomes in a simulation or game, the computer can essentially know within a system of free choices, all possible outcomes. God is a lot faster and smarter than a simple computer. The only way however that the computer can “know” the end from the beginning, is to set constraints on choices, making stories, or outcomes that are restricted, which simplifies computation. For God to know every event that could potentially happen He would need to put constraints on man’s stories.

Why blinded and given a negative purpose

God can raise people up for a good or bad purpose. Judas was given a sad purpose, the betrayal of Jesus. But I believe even as the scripture says:

Romans 9:22 What if God, desiring to let his wrath and his power be seen, endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath which were ready for destruction:

Judas had beforehand, in his earlier life disqualified himself from eternal life, God had put up with his behavior and then got sick of it. Jesus said of him at the time of working with him:

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

So why was Judas, a devil, chosen to betray Jesus, why? He was a thief.

John 12:6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.

Judas had a lifestyle of stealing. Now we see that other thieves have been redeemed so I am not saying a thief can’t be saved, we see one of the robbers on the cross was forgiven and made it to heaven. What I am saying is our lifestyle determines our outcome.

God can not be tempted by evil so does not drive it

Now let’s look at temptation. We know that God does not tempt any man to sin.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

So God is not causing or responsible for the evil actions of man. This means God did not plan out the evil deeds of man. I believe as the Bible says of the Christian:

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

That for every evil purpose man proposes, or carries out, God is working in the background moving people toward a good purpose, even though an evil act occurred. If the planning of God extends to our day-to-day activities, it is making the statement, God knows a negative act could occur, given free will, but He has a positive plan to work things out for good in the end.

Ultimately a reason for planning out situations, and life paths is to prevent any one man from being exposed to any sin or difficulty that is uncommon to man. To place limits on what they can and can not do. Whether this is all preplanned or whether God daily places constraints on people is a subject for debate.

Predestination's Unreasonableness

There are some scriptures in the Bible that are hard to understand, Peter wrote that a lot of Paul’s writings although true, were hard to understand.

2Peter 3:15-16 Don't forget that the Lord is patient because he wants people to be saved. This is also what our dear friend Paul said when he wrote you with the wisdom that God had given him. Paul talks about these same things in all his letters, but part of what he says is hard to understand. Some ignorant and unsteady people even destroy themselves by twisting what he said. They do the same thing with other Scriptures too.

Satan loves to take the truth and twist it to make it hard for people to come to the truth. It only takes a small lie, or twisting of the truth to turn people off.

Gal 5:9 A little yeast can change a whole batch of dough

The Bible tells us that it is the “goodness of God that leads you to repentance”, so it is no surprise that one of Satan’s goals is to attack the goodness of God.

Predestination is a topic that is often taken so far that it attacks the nature of God. The Bible says that “God is love”, this love is expressed in God’s desire to draw, as many as are willing to Himself:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The Bible tells us that God loved the world and gave His son so that whoever believes in Him will be saved, and that God is slow to anger, not willing that any people perish.

Predestination takes some hard-to-understand scriptures and makes a harsh view of God which attacks the above scriptures. Predestination assumes that people “can not choose to do good”, that they “can not respond to salvation”, and the only way God can save a person is to choose them for salvation, and fix their destiny. Essentially God only chooses a select few, who they call the Elect for salvation. The rest cannot respond and are damned. This is all a part of God’s will, He fixes destinies before time began, and it is His plan, a plan that cannot be altered. If you look at this with logical eyes, you can see that it makes God look like a monster.